Ok I've been looking around and I see that there is a much thicker Coax cable.
RG11. I'm just wondering what everyone else uses? The coax I have is quite flimsy so I"m guessing its RG6 but isn't that standard? Or Perhaps the grade of cable I have is poor? When installing new cable should I be using a cable tester to insure a good installation? Someone fill me in. :wacko:

Thanks as always :hat:

Ok I've been looking around and I see that there is a much thicker Coax cable.
RG11. I'm just wondering what everyone else uses? The coax I have is quite flimsy so I"m guessing its RG6 but isn't that standard? Or Perhaps the grade of cable I have is poor? When installing new cable should I be using a cable tester to insure a good installation? Someone fill me in. :wacko:

Thanks as always :hat:


RG-6 is the correct cable to use, if it doesnt say RG-6 on the cable assume its not and change it, some people use other coax like old cable TV coax from previous cable TV installations where the cable cant be changed, but other types dont have the same resistant value, for the best reception use RG-6

:mellow:

standard cable is 59 for most..RG6 cable is good for satellite as long as your not going 150 200ft away..just make sure your ends are nice and clean..no silver wire touching or you will short out the cable.

Ok I've been looking around and I see that there is a much thicker Coax cable.
RG11. I'm just wondering what everyone else uses? The coax I have is quite flimsy so I"m guessing its RG6 but isn't that standard? Or Perhaps the grade of cable I have is poor? When installing new cable should I be using a cable tester to insure a good installation? Someone fill me in. :wacko:

Thanks as always :hat:


RG11 is typically used by cable companies for businesses as well as residential units at or over 300 feet from the tap/drop. As far as satellite usage it is farely nonexistant. Sticking with rg6 & not stretching it out too far (around 150-200ft, different people will give you different answers) will yield you good results. I have heard of people using inline amps rated for satellite but I dont use them so I really cant comment on their performance.

I agree with woofy, it is imperative your ends are flawless. Skimping there will definitely cost you in the long run.

RG-6 is sufficient, but it should be satellite rated ( 3Ghz sweep tested ) and 60% shield. There is some cheap stuff out there. RG-11 is overkill , but will give you less loss . It's a better option when you exceed 100 ft of cable, and it's somewhat more expensive.
Good quality RG-6 is the answer in most cases.

Brent

standard cable is 59 for most..RG6 cable is good for satellite as long as your not going 150 200ft away..just make sure your ends are nice and clean..no silver wire touching or you will short out the cable.


On the silver mesh is it supposed to be cut away completely? Or is it supposed to touch the connector?

No silver braid or foil on copper center conductor.

No silver braid or foil on copper center conductor.


Thanks thats what I thought and had been doing.

Thanks thats what I thought and had been doing.

You're welcome, good luck.

I prefer RG 6 Quad shield at least 2300mhz.Have used it for many years and even buried quite a bit and it holds up well overtime.The biggest thing to avoid is splicing cable,I don't care how well you wrap it or how good the connecters are even with the o rings it will still find a way to draw moisture.

Spaceview, when I have had to splice cable (when its buried or not) I always use heat shrink tubing leaving like at least 2 inches past the splice each way.It seems to work very well, I never have had a trouble call on any jobs.

here's how you install the F-connectors

http://www.hometech.com/learn/coaxterm.html#rg6d
http://www.hometech.com/learn/coaxterm.html

i just buy rg6 cable (good quality) with the ends already on,its been on the roof for 10yrs now,lol, now after talking about it i should get some new cable.

yes ,i have seen that at homedepot

What do you guys think about the snap lock type connectors? I've been thinking about getting the tools...I've got a crimper for the normal type connectors I've had for a long time... however never use anymore since I found screw on type connectors at Radio Shack. Which seem to work well.
I find myself moving cables around all the time so the screw on ends are nice and reusable.....anyone else use that type? I'm no pro and up untill a couple of years ago it was pretty much like finding my way in the dark.



Expressline

One thing no one has answered me on yet was the cable tester. Do you guys use one? I realize its just for my house...but being a tool freak :wow: makes me want to have one.

"Snap and Seal" or compression f-conns are great. I use them all the time, of course if the cable is not prepped properly you could have a gold platted connector and your signal quality would still be awlful.

What do you mean cable tester?

What do you guys think about the snap lock type connectors? I've been thinking about getting the tools...I've got a crimper for the normal type connectors I've had for a long time... however never use anymore since I found screw on type connectors at Radio Shack. Which seem to work well.
I find myself moving cables around all the time so the screw on ends are nice and reusable.....anyone else use that type? I'm no pro and up untill a couple of years ago it was pretty much like finding my way in the dark.



Expressline

i use crimp now but Compression Connectors is my next step up

What do you mean cable tester?


My confusion. I thought there was a tester to allow quality testing of the cable run. Upon looking all I see is a tone tester for tracing. I must be mistaken.

Spaceview, when I have had to splice cable (when its buried or not) I always use heat shrink tubing leaving like at least 2 inches past the splice each way.It seems to work very well, I never have had a trouble call on any jobs.

Thats a good tip!;) I have tried virtually everything but heatshrink.Although I have found one thing that I have been using lately time will tell how good it does.SealAll,its gas and oil resistant once it sets up it appears to be very watertight.Only problem is that once it sets up there will be no loosening the connecters!

One thing no one has answered me on yet was the cable tester. Do you guys use one? I realize its just for my house...but being a tool freak :wow: makes me want to have one.

A good ( or even not so good ) waveguide meter to sweep your cable is pretty much cost prohibitive for this hobby. That's why some don't know what you are asking.
Just keep the vinyl on your RG6 in good condition and DoNOT pinch or smash it or make tight bends.

FYI: I have found that while RG11 is generally overkill as stated above, it can solve problems changing polarization on longer runs when the process is voltage dependant.

Good luck.

I use crimp on connectors myself, but really am trying to justify getting a good compression tool. One thing I have found over the years with crimp on's is that a good coating of dielectric grease on the inside of the connectors really helps waterproofing.

FYI: I have found that while RG11 is generally overkill as stated above, it can solve problems changing polarization on longer runs when the process is voltage dependant.

Good luck.


Oh such as with running a USALS motor....makes sense.

Thanks.

Well, Duh... I am using RG-11 and I love the big 14 gauge center conductor. Everything about it is expensive though, The end connectors I use cost $6.00 a pop. It is overkill. I do agree with the other posts that Quad-Shield RG-6 is the way to go.
You can do simple continuity test with any voltmeter. It is particularly good to make sure none of the shield wires touch the center conductor. That is certainly worth the trouble, but it is a far cry from a 'cable tester' :)

One thing no one has answered me on yet was the cable tester. Do you guys use one? I realize its just for my house...but being a tool freak :wow: makes me want to have one.
a tester just checks for open circuits and short circuits

the coaxial cable has two parts to complete the circuit

the inner wire and the out side foil + wire shield

both are needed to complete the connection to you lnb etc.

look at it as the inner wire as positive and the out side a common

Well, Duh... I am using RG-11 and I love the big 14 gauge center conductor. Everything about it is expensive though, The end connectors I use cost $6.00 a pop. It is overkill. I do agree with the other posts that Quad-Shield RG-6 is the way to go.

The average person can get a benefit from RG-11. They probably don't need the benefit, but they will get it. The average person won't get any benefit from the quad-shielding. Regular, high quality, RG6 is all they will usually need.

A cable tester that is properly calibrated to your local Cable Companies freq will only help you on the TV Cable side of it by measuring db's on a particular cable run to determine signal strength.

yes on a signal meter ,but i don't think that's what he was talking about

Exactly as Phant said...the standard user won't gain anything by making the investment for RG6 Quad shield and standard good ole RG6 will do just fine. RG11 is what we use for trunk cable lines in apt buildings or malls to feed multiple units with a distance of 200' or more. Again, it's not cost effective or managable for the home user to even consider. There's no noticable gain.

Steve from NY

The one thing I like about quad shielding is *lots* of wires on the shield. I concur that if you know what you are doing and have good connector equipment, the standard cable is fine, BUT, the quad shield is a plus-up for making sure you have a good shield connection for the lnb/motor power and for installations by newbies.
Now, if you are planning on using factory connectors on both ends and not installing connectors yourself, absolutely it is not needed.
icefalkon is correct about the 'managable' properties of RG-11 (as in unmanagable). I run mine from the grounding block 2' from the dish into the closet behind my reciever. The final 3' inside and all the dish cabling is RG-6. It looks like something from the Borg collective running through the garage.

LOL I hear ya there Cambell, I have that on the roof of my shop as well. Enough dishes to make NASA notice and enough wires to make people think we're doing science experiments!

LOL

Steve from NY

LOL I hear ya there Cambell, I have that on the roof of my shop as well. Enough dishes to make NASA notice and enough wires to make people think we're doing science experiments!

LOL

Steve from NY


Thats just too cool

The one thing I like about quad shielding is *lots* of wires on the shield. I concur that if you know what you are doing and have good connector equipment, the standard cable is fine, BUT, the quad shield is a plus-up for making sure you have a good shield connection for the lnb/motor power and for installations by newbies.

Mmh, now you have me thinking. You should get a slightly lower voltage drop with RG11, no matter what the length. Therefore, it might be something for those with a motor to consider. I think in some cases (most?) this higher voltage would translate into faster move times for the dish.

i dont think you will get a big increase in voltage using rg 11 rg 6 has 5 db loss per 100 ft while rg 11 is 2.2 db per 100 ft if your running drops 150 ft or longer rg 11 would be better but a line amp would be better cutting fittings for rg 11 are a bitch i have worked with it before and if you can get away with rg 6 quad your better off

i dont think you will get a big increase in voltage using rg 11 rg 6 has 5 db loss per 100 ft while rg 11 is 2.2 db per 100 ft if your running drops 150 ft or longer rg 11 would be better but a line amp would be better cutting fittings for rg 11 are a bitch i have worked with it before and if you can get away with rg 6 quad your better off


dB of signal and voltage drop are two completely different measurements.
all due respect...but,you're wrong.

With the short distances we're talking about, there will be minimal if any voltage drop. If the motor and dish were far enough for VD to be an issue, you'd pretty much HAVE to use RG11.

Steve from NY

yes i know signal and voltage drop are different i was just stating the signal loss comparision between rg11 and rg6 not to confuse that with voltage discussion its just my opinion that not much would be gained voltage wise with short rg11 drops

Good quality RG6 and high quality fittings is all you need. No reason to mess wtih RG11. The fittings are the key. Bad fittings "leak" signal. Good compression fittings don't.

The voltage drop in RG-6 at 100'-150' *should* be taken into the design considerations by the STB mfgrs. The drop in voltage usually results in an increase in current, and as long as the reciever can meet the current requirements, it *shouldn't* be a problem.
Since the motors' requirements are well known, and the STB's expect RG-6, the only issue is what Project2501 mentioned... BAD FITTINGS, the bane of the world :)
BTW, My motor doesn't seem to be setting any land speed records... It is fast compared to my old C-Band dish, but *that* was a lot of iron to move.

From the Andrew site:
A690-BVV-W (RG-6) DC loop resistance per 1000 feet: 46.2 ohms and loss of 7.49 dB per 100 feet at 1450 MHz

A1160-BVV (RG-11) DC loop resistance per 1000 feet: 20.0 ohms and loss of
4.98 dB per 100 feet at 1450 MHz

From the standpoint of 100 foot runs, use whatever you have. Without knowing the ampere requirements for the motor, figuring the additional voltage loss isn't possible however the voltage loss isn't enough to worry about.. The signal losses are accounted for by the LNB. If your coax run is extreme, better look to 7/8" hardline and just grit your teeth over the connector costs of $45+ each.
--------------------------
Use what you got. Perfection is for engineers; technicians just make whatever you have work. Hope this helps.
-----------------
Pantec MS, 30 cm dish with DTV LNB looking at 119 degrees
Whole lotta C-band (3-10 footers w/analog and digital rcvrs) junk to play with.

i use crimp now but Compression Connectors is my next step up
today's the day i move to Compression Connectors .my crimp on connectors rotted out

acs33,
I have seen the "data shark" compression tools at Home Depot for fairly inexpensive, around $17.

Check out solidsignal.com for good cable and fittings. You'll have to invest in the compressor for compression fitting too, but it's worth it. Totol cost will be about the same as if you had a pro do the installation one time, but you'll own all the equipment yourself and can then hire yourself out to your buddies that need the same service.

LOL talk about this thread going over the edge. Put it like this...in a nutshell from someone who's been installing for over 20yrs...

1-200'- RG6

200-1200' - RG11

1200' + Hard Line

That's what we do in the trade guys. As for your F connectors, yes compression has been the way to go for years now. My guys use the Ideal CrimpMaster, but that'll run you about $50 or so. Look for a cheaper compression crimper on fleabay.

Steve from NY

The voltage drop in RG-6 at 100'-150' *should* be taken into the design considerations by the STB mfgrs. The drop in voltage usually results in an increase in current, and as long as the reciever can meet the current requirements, it *shouldn't* be a problem.
No, the voltage limits the amount of current that can be drawn. A DC motor's speed is directly proportional to the supply voltage.
You can see that here, where the speed of an HH90 motor is given as 2.4°/s @ 18V but only 1.5°/s @ 13V
hxxp://64.78.51.244/download/HH90TEST.pdf

Since the motors' requirements are well known, and the STB's expect RG-6, the only issue is what Project2501 mentioned.
The only issue for things to work well perhaps. Since RG11 has less than half the DC resistance of RG6, there will be a higher voltage available to the motor. The question is, can a user measure (notice) the difference in motor speed? The diffence in signal attenuation between the cable types is unlikely to be useful in a typical installation.

i highly recommend using compression connectors for outdoor connections

it's a little pricey but worth it

homedepot:

ideal compresstool $59.95
ideal connectors qty50 $28.00
ideal portseals qty10 $7.98

the compress tool works very well and easy to use even with my damaged right hand

acs33,
I have seen the "data shark" compression tools at Home Depot for fairly inexpensive, around $17.

Thats great I forgot to even look there.

LOL talk about this thread going over the edge. Put it like this...in a nutshell from someone who's been installing for over 20yrs...

1-200'- RG6

200-1200' - RG11

1200' + Hard Line

That's what we do in the trade guys. As for your F connectors, yes compression has been the way to go for years now. My guys use the Ideal CrimpMaster, but that'll run you about $50 or so. Look for a cheaper compression crimper on fleabay.

Steve from NY

Over the edge! I'm overwhelmed now with all this info....ok maybe not so much. But all I can say is Wow....Its simple but can be as complicated as you like. Thanks for all the info people. I've learned a lot.

You're welcome Expressline! Ask whatever questions come to mind either here or in PM and I'll do my best to help ya out.

Steve from NY

My confusion. I thought there was a tester to allow quality testing of the cable run. Upon looking all I see is a tone tester for tracing. I must be mistaken. a toner is more than adequit to see if you have a decent signal. plain and simple...no tone...no signal.

PHANT... you're both right.... the lower voltage as a result of long cable length will reduce the speed of the motor.. But it will also INCREASE the motor current, since it is an inductive load. Both are undesireable for the motor.. since the higher current can eventually burn out the motor.

basic P=I x E, since P remains constant, so with E reduced, I must increase.

PHANT, it isn't directly proportional... If you use the 2.4°/18Vs X 13V you get 1.7°/s @ 13V, likewise 1.5°/13Vs X 18V gives 2.08°/s @ 18V. Something else has to be going on.
I got a pretty good compression tool and 10 gold-plated RG-6 connectors at Lowe's yesterday for $27.00. I haven't used it yet, but it seems to be pretty good quality for occasional use.

Good quality RG6 and high quality fittings is all you need. No reason to mess wtih RG11. The fittings are the key. Bad fittings "leak" signal. Good compression fittings don't.

Exactly sorta. The problem is the type F connectors commonly used for consumer grade FTA receivers. Type F was just fine for OTA reception, but they poop out pretty much above a couple hundred MHz. The old Microdyne 1100 series receivers for 3.7-4.2 GHz I had used N connectors that are good to just above 11 GHz. The reason they aren't used for consumer grade is expense.

If the F connectors are sealed with coax sealer at the LNB, many of your problems with corrosion/etc will be far less. Properly installed there will be minimal signal leakage. The losses are due to the poor F connector design that causes an impedence bump at the fitting. At FTA frequencies (900-2150 MHz), the impedence bumps account for the all losses above the published coax loss. Good reason to use continuous runs from the LNB to the set-top with absolutely NO bullet connectors to couple additional length to the run. Just buy new good quality coax plenty long enough and cut off the unused length.

Hex crimpers aren't that expensive when you compare them to the rest of your installation. Don't waste the microvolts of signal you have down-verted
before it gets to your set-box.

Quad shielding is a bit of over-kill. Good in high RF environments, but not needed for typical home installation. Double shielded (braid and foil) good quality coax is plenty good. Take the time and install them correctly.

If you are at the edge or just beyond the beam pattern for the satellite, RG-11 might give you the couple (at most) of dBs of additional signal to make the difference for DVB, but only if the run is over around a hundred feet or more. 3 dB gain is double the power, but not for voltage.

Ugly math follows:
dB=10 log P1/P2 (Power in watts, microwatts in our case) P1 is power at load (receiver). P2 is power of source (output of LNB)

dB=20 log E1/E2 E1 is voltage at load (reciever)and E2 is voltage at source (output of LNB)

It is all about the microvolts delivered to the box.

BTW, foam dialectric coax has a bit lower loss, but sharp bends will allow the center wire to move off center causing additional losses from the impedence bump this off-center wire creates. Solid PE dialectric coax can take a sharper bend and be a better choice for HH dishes. It is possible to wed foam to solid with TNC or N connectors. But have you priced 75 ohm TNC or N connectors?
---------------------------------
Hope this helps. Testing is just a hobby I keep telling myself.

Ok I broke down and actually looked at the cable spool I have....
says "consolidated RG59 b/u" so thats why I thought it was flimsy I guess.

what does the b/u stand for?

b/u?? I don't know.

The RG stands for regular grade.

LOL now that we all have the technical specs for F connectors and the obvious design flaws, I strongly suggest you guys go and thank Overtheedge for the time he spent on that post.

B stands for 1000hz I think, but it's been quite some time since I've had to remember the jacket specs of cable. As for the U...I can't remember...maybe suitable for Underground.

At least go get a compression tool, good connectors and and coaxial stripper.

Bottom line AGAIN to answer the original posters questions:

1-200'- RG6

200-1200' - RG11

1200' + Hard Line

As for using RG11 in a standard installation, that's insane and normally not going to make a damn difference in what you see. The price, difficulty of use, and cost of the special compression tool alone is enough to make it just about unecessary to even mention except in special circumstances.

LOL this thread seems go have gone the way of, "who can provide the most useless research and post it a thread". Unless you live in a 20 story building on the GROUND FLOOR with your dish on the top of the water tower...you do NOT have to use RG11. Unless you live on a FARM surrounded by TREE's and have to you put the dish on top of the silo 300' away...you do NOT have to use RG11.

I can keep coming up with more of these, but I think the point has been made. Hell, the point was made a few posts ago. All the people who've actually installed RG11 on a regular basis say AYE...

AYE.

There's a few more of us around here who've logged in hundreds of hours doing trunk line installations and we speak from experience. If you want overkill...knock yourself out...if you want to research till your balls drop...knock yourself out. But don't go and put it in the newbie or average users head that RG11 is going to be the answer to their prayers. It's costly, difficult to get, difficult to work with and is a general pain in the ass.

KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid

Steve from NY

B / U i thought one of them had to do with what type of core it had foam or other

RG stands for Radio Grade... the suffixes, ie- a, b, u , a/u, etc.. refer to the style and type of outer jacket, dielectric and inner shielding .

Yup, correct. I'm trying to find the definition of the B/U now. I have a book at my shop that has the wire insulation definitions, I'll get it from there.

Steve from NY

Icefalkon is correct.
KISS
My first Ku dish and feedline was an 18"er with 40' of RG-59 and cheap F connectors. Even north of 60 latitude, I got a useable signal.

Previous postings of mine on this thread was just info for those who push the fringe of reception. Use what you have. If you get a good signal, that is all you need.
------------------------------------
Perfect is for engineers, techs just make whatever you have work.
Think I've said enough on this thread to even bore myself.

RG stands for Radio Grade... the suffixes, ie- a, b, u , a/u, etc.. refer to the style and type of outer jacket, dielectric and inner shielding .

Or Radio Guide, if you believe these guys: hxxp://coaxcable.quickseek.com/
The /U means multiple uses.

We need to get our hands on the now obsolete MIL-HDBK-216 handbook.

"They go back to World War II and were listed in MIL-HDBK-216 published in 1962....
However, the RG-series designations were so common for generations that they are still used, although critical users should be aware that since the handbook is withdrawn there is no standard to guarantee the electrical and physical characteristics of a cable described as "RG=# type".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_cable